Cooking Up a Storm in the Business World

Unlock the secrets of digital advertising and entrepreneurial growth with advertising whiz Robert Brill from Brill Media. In our latest chat, Robert and I go beyond the buzzwords, examining the art of combining social media and Google ads to boost business success. Get ready for an unexpected journey as we also delve into Robert's culinary adventures and his delectable Instagram account 'Dude Let's Eat', where personal passions meet professional insights. This episode isn't just a talk; it's a treasure trove of strategies for those looking to leave their mark on the digital landscape while stirring a love for food and culture.

We're serving up a hearty discussion on the crucial ingredient for business success: product-market fit. Whether you're toying with the idea of launching a food truck or setting up a brick-and-mortar restaurant, we examine the advantages of agile business models that allow entrepreneurs to taste-test the market. Plus, I peel back the layers of my own advertising experience, stressing the importance of sales as the ultimate measure of market fit and the power of communication that resonates with customer needs. For anyone hungry to scale their business and navigate the growth stages, from networking to content creation, this conversation with Robert is the recipe for success you've been craving.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Elevate Media Podcast with your host, chris Anderson. In this show, chris and his guests will share their knowledge and experience on how to go from zero to successful entrepreneur. They have built their businesses from scratch and are now ready to give back to those who are just starting. Let's get ready to learn, grow and elevate our businesses. And now your host, chris Anderson.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Welcome back to another recording of the Elevate Media Podcast. I'm Chris Anderson, your host. Today. We're going to dive into the topic of advertising running ads for your business, specifically on social media, google, things like that. So we brought in an expert who's done this for many, many, many years. He owns his company, brill Media, and this is what they do. This is what he's done since starting that, I believe, back in 2013. So, robert Brill Robert, welcome to the LBA Media Podcast today.

Speaker 3: 1:00

Thanks for having me, chris, really appreciate it, yeah absolutely so.

Speaker 2: 1:04

You know, kind of did a little intro there, but yeah, tell everybody just high level real quick about who you are. Maybe something people don't know about you, That'd be interesting. And then a little bit about Brill Media.

Speaker 3: 1:13

Yeah, so, um, I've spent 20 years working in the advertising business and, uh, 10 years ago, I started Brill Media and, um, our job is to provide scalable advertising solutions to both agencies and businesses. One of the reasons I started this business is the last job I had was an hour and a half drive each way and I just didn't want to work in an office anymore. I didn't want to have that commute. I have a food account on Instagram called dude let's eat, so I post food photos and you know that was part of my, um, my testing and hobbies, uh, part of when I started this business. I was like, okay, let's understand more about the larger marketing ecosystem and I tried to become an influencer as a result.

Speaker 3: 2:02

result of that okay my claim to fame as an influencer was Holiday Inn Express paid me $2,500 to make a Vine video. Remember Vine. That was my claim to fame. Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 2: 2:17

So any food in particular, or do you have a special?

Speaker 3: 2:20

Just all good food. It doesn't have to be fancy food, it could be street food, it's just like stuff that photographs well and that's that that backs it with, with, uh, with good taste love it.

Speaker 2: 2:33

That's awesome. I love food too, man. So any had any place that you've been to around the world that sticks out in your mind about food that you've really like liked the most oh oh, that's a tough one.

Speaker 3: 2:45

Um, I think the place that sticks out not related to food, but the the, the place my, my immediate, my mind immediately went to was, um, hong kong. Oh, my wife and I went to hong kong, uh, on a little our asia adventure, and, uh, we loved hong kong. It was totally different. Had some good dim sum there, okay what is?

Speaker 3: 3:03

that, huh, what is it? It's, uh, shoot, if I can only tell you, um, I don't, I don't actually know, uh, what it is. It's basically like, um, like pork buns or something like. It's a. It's a bun, it's a really tasty like, basically very, very white bun with pork or something inside.

Speaker 3: 3:23

So one of the most interesting experiences we had, so the big thing about hong kong is, um, everything's in a mall. The whole city you're in a mall. So there's a like a district, kind of like in new york they have the financial district, they have that but, like, anytime you're going to eat something or go shopping for anything, it's inside a mall. So there's this place called Lantau Island, which is on the outskirts. It's this big Buddha that's built on a mountain. It's magical there, by the way.

Speaker 3: 3:56

So on the way there we went and we stopped. We're like, let's get some local food Right from local food, right. Oh, invariably, we ended up at a, at a building that had there was, there was a community of three, um, residential buildings that were, like each 30 stories high and at the bottom floor you had, not surprisingly, malls. It's like local, local flavor malls. So we went in. We're like we're gonna eat and um. We were the only um non-locals in the spot, and most of the locals were like older they're like in their 60s and 70s and so we just stuck out like a sore thumb. And the best part about it is no one has napkins. They don't offer napkins in restaurants in Hong Kong, so you have to bring your own napkin. The nice lady sitting next to us took pity on my wife and I and we had no idea what we were ordering either and handed us a bunch of napkins, and we must have been the highlight of their day because we were so out of out of place there.

Speaker 2: 4:53

So hong kong, it was quite an adventure yeah, so I've actually I've been to hong kong once. Uh, we were like just in hong kong, like the, the heart of it, for a day, I think layover. But we went to Xi'an, which is not super, super terrible Distance-wise Great Wall, terracotta Warriors are kind of fairly close. That's in China. Yeah, in China, oh cool. Yeah, in Xi'an. When we were there, we walked through their kind of they're like a I don't know. You know downtown cities here in the US. They have like all the antique malls and like you can walk out kind of. It was kind of like that, but they had a lot of booths and selling things.

Speaker 2: 5:35

And my memory of food there besides the food at the at the university, because we went to run a leadership convention for the college kids there, oh cool, at the university, because we went to run a leadership convention for the college kids there, oh cool. They're all like watermelon rice and some sort of meat on a stick, uh, and I would like I was like, oh, I was super hungry all the time because, like, I'm used to eating whatever, so I get like 70s, seven of these shababs with all this whatever meat it was on the stick and the kids, like the college kids there. The chinese kids were like, oh my, my nickname to them was meat man because I would just load my tray with these things and they'd like, oh, my, like it was crazy. But we were walking out in this the market area, uh, and they had all these vendors and like street food stuff and, um, my friend was like dude, I bet you 10 bucks I think it was 10 bucks, I hope it was more after you hear this, but you know, I'll bet you that you won't eat something I pick off the street vendor food stuff.

Speaker 2: 6:31

Like you bet, go ahead. Uh, and so he did. He picked a tarantula and, oh, he bought a stick. Um, and thankfully he didn't make me, don't? He said I just bet you won't take a bite and eat it and stuff. And I did, and it was. It was different. Um, would it be on the top of my good food list.

Speaker 3: 6:51

But yeah, speaking of tarantulas. Speaking of tarantulas, check out the new Adam Sandler movie on Netflix. Is that the video that's? That's the space one. Oh, not his animated one. No, it's Adam Sandler in space. Okay, let me check that out, okay, apropos of Tarantulas, it's the craziest film. I didn't know he had that one out there, but yeah so it's new, it's like a week old or something.

Speaker 2: 7:19

Oh, wow, okay, yeah, I'll check it out. But, yeah, wow, okay, yeah, I'll check it out, but yeah. So when you said China, I was like that brought back memories of food for me. Yeah, so well, that's cool. So you know, you know food, all these businesses, you know restaurants yeah, especially if they I feel like restaurants are a harder industry because, like it's based on people's likes and stuff. So you're going to have to market, you're going to have and I have to, like you said, pay for photos, pay for different things and, just like other businesses, we have to pay for marketing right to, to expand our reach, yeah, especially with so much going on. So do you think, like kind of just to jump into it? Is there a a level that business should get to before considering paying for ads to be put out there?

Speaker 3: 8:07

there is a level, but it's not a financial level, it's a. It's a metric for, um, the success of the business. It's do you have product market fit? Restaurants are pretty, pretty straightforward, yeah. What is explain that to everybody? So product market fit, in very simple way, is are people buying from you? Are people spending money to buy the product or service that you have? And there's a few ways you know if you do and there's a few ways to know if you don't. If you do have product market fit, you're finding that it's really easy to sell your product or service. Maybe not easy, but you can do it. Yeah, if you don't have product market fit, no one's buying or very few people are buying. So diagnosing product market fit can be a number of different things.

Speaker 3: 8:55

So let's take the restaurant, for example. I'm trying to think where are you located? By the way, we're in Indiana, indiana, okay. So I'm in Los Angeles, okay, I just flew back from Vegas last night for a conference, and then there's a place called Peiwei P-E-I-W-E-I Okay, I think it's like Chinese or Asian fast food or Chinese fast food or something like that, and I guess you do have it. You have Panda Express out here in Los Angeles. That's kind of like fast food.

Speaker 3: 9:27

But if you let's say Caribbean fast food, I've never seen a Caribbean fast food place. Is it good? Probably I've had Caribbean food. It's fantastic. So if you're like, okay, I'm going to give you my mother's recipe from the Caribbean, right? Someone comes over here. They're like this is going to be the spiel, it's everything right. Someone comes over here, they're like this is going to be the spiel, it's everything right. There's Cuban food, which is great, which is, you know, the plantains and all that stuff. But let's say it's Caribbean. You open up the restaurant.

Speaker 3: 9:52

First of all, you shouldn't open up a restaurant. You should open up a cart, a truck, because it's far less investment and you can test and you can actually go to different locations. So, first of all, the first sort of like tangential insight there is spend as little money as possible to figure it out. But let's say you open this truck and you can't sell. That's an insight that you don't have product market fit because what you have people don't want. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 3: 10:21

So at that point you've got to diagnose why aren't people buying? Is it actually because they don't want it, like the food is not good? Is it because the food doesn't mesh with the palates of the united states, is it because it's priced really expensive, like I spent 40 at a food truck for a uh, for a uh in in sherman oaks in the valley, for like rice and I'm trying to remember what it's called, but basically like a plate of rice meat chicken stir fry. Okay, it was amazing, it was great. The flavors were on point. It was great, the flavors were on point. Would I buy it again? Maybe if I'm feeling special, if I'm feeling lucky, I'm feeling like I'm having a good day, I want to celebrate something, but like that's a lot of money for a food, sure, or off of a truck, yeah Right. So you've got to decide do people actually want what you have? Do they want it, but your price in the wrong direction? You know that's that's where I would kind of go with it.

Speaker 3: 11:26

So you should start. You can use marketing advertising to help you determine product market fit, but the thing is you have to. Oops, there we go. Sorry I might, am I stalled on you? There we? Yep, I don't know what's going on. You can use marketing and advertising to help you find product market fit, but you have to have that be your core goal. You should not. If you don't know if you have product market fit, you should not start spending money on advertising and, by the way, the definition of advertising right for everyone listening. You're paying a publisher, television network, something You're paying someone to deliver a message to their users, paying for advertising space, paying for delivering messages. Now you can post on social media and that's free because you're not paying anyone, although you might have production costs in whatever the case is, but you shouldn't spend money to amplify a message that is fundamentally selling something that people don't want. That's a really long answer to a very short question.

Speaker 2: 12:47

And I think that's I think it's a great point. I think you have to make sure what you're trying to sell, you know, is viable in the market, right? Like you said, it's got to fit in. People got to want it. They got to want to be able to pay whatever you're trying to charge. Do you do pay whatever you're trying to charge? Do you find that there is a piece that is most commonly the reason that it's not a fit? Is it price? Is it-.

Speaker 3: 13:11

They don't know how to market. They don't know how to so you know, I've seen entrepreneurs who create really bad websites. And you know, look, if you can sell like business to business, your website doesn't matter as much. Right, it lends you a little bit of credibility, but no one's going to go to a website in the early days and buy it because of the website. But if your website is bad, that'll be a reason why they don't buy. It's sort of like a weird conundrum there. Like for my business, I took two years to figure out product market fit. How do I go to market Like I knew what I was doing? The question is, I don't know the words and phrases to say to get people to spend money with us. Until I did, and then it was great, yeah. So I think I think you've just got to like, experiment and tinker until you find some model for every business owner, I think, in every vertical niche, et cetera. It has to be predictable, repeatable and scalable business growth. That's what we're all looking for, yep.

Speaker 2: 14:12

So you said it took you two years to figure that out, to get the wording right. What do you mean by getting the wording right? Your process?

Speaker 3: 14:22

Yeah. So what I learned is that and this is so obvious I just didn't know how to do it. So, coming out of college or coming out of college, I spent 10 years in advertising and then, 10 years, started my business. I knew the practice of how to, like, make advertising campaigns work. I didn't know how to sell. I did not talk to people that would get them to spend money with us. So you know, like, there's this thing called programmatic advertising. It's the use of data, targeting and technology In 2024, it's just sort of the de facto way that advertising works.

Speaker 3: 14:55

But in 2013, 14, 15, it was kind of like new Gotcha. I'd go to restaurants and I'd say, hey, we do programmatic advertising. They're like cool, I have no idea what that is. I'll see you later Because confused people don't buy. So it's obvious now.

Speaker 3: 15:10

But I didn't know how to talk about ourselves in a way that was compelling to the people who had money to spend with us. And so when I talked to restaurants, for example, I said things like we're going to get more people into your restaurant during your slow times and we're going to increase your order value. That resonates with them the fact that I know about programmatic or hyperlocal, all these cool things, programmatic. The rule of programmatic advertising is just don't call it programmatic. But even you know we were talking about hyperlocal advertising which is using which is using location behaviors to figure out where people are and serve them ads. Like, if you go to a specific restaurant, I can isolate anyone who went into that location and serve them ads. After the fact, right understand hyper and they understand local, like it, kind of like it sounds cool. But you only have so much room in a conversation for these jargony terms.

Speaker 2: 16:06

for the rest of the conversation it has to be about you, your problems and how I can solve your problems yeah, and then you know, obviously you got to show the value right versus the price and in comparison, and so if people are trying to, really I love this, I think finding their market value there and product market value like there's so much there, right, because you said you took two years. So how do you? Did you just suggest people go and just talk to their ideal clients, prospects, to figure all this out, or do you have a different process to hone in on that?

Speaker 3: 16:46

you know, I think I'm going to like change our slogan to include the word boring, you know, in it, because everything we do is boring, like it's like I'm not. Like this is not about growth hacks, this is not about shortcuts, like you've got to put in the work to figure it out. So that's exactly what I suggest You've got to talk to people until you know how to deliver a message that people like. That's it. It took me two years. I went to conferences, I went to meetups, I went to local events. I went to any environment where I could talk about our business, to local events. I went to any environment where I could talk about our business and I'd pay attention to whether people's eyes glossed over or they actually engage with me, and they're. You know, glossing over could mean I'm not talking to the right person. True, I'm going to wait for this to. Yeah, there you go. Sorry about that. I don't know what's going on.

Speaker 3: 17:40

Maybe, I need to restart my computer, I don't know. So it's possible talking to the wrong person is going to be the cause of someone glossing over. That's another insight. Right, don't waste your time talking to people who are not the decision makers or who are in a completely different industry and have no need for advertising or marketing. So you start to understand who your ideal customer is. I just did the old fashioned way because I think that's important, because you know, when you're a business owner, as you know, you've got a. Every dollar not spent today is dollar that can provide you runway for tomorrow. So what's the point of advertising if I don't have product market fit? I didn't call it product market fit at the time. Call it product market fit at the time I just like I don't think. Basically, it was me feeling not confident in my ability to actually advertise and be effective. That it was just. I just felt it.

Speaker 2: 18:32

But now, looking back at it, 10 years, I would call it it's not having product market fit so you know, with that, when people are going out and they're trying to connect and you know, just go to repetitions, right, they're, they're doing that, say they kind of get it down, they kind of see that it's working. You know they're having those conversations and people are like, yeah, let's do it, like there's no real hesitation. Then it's just you know the whole process of okay, you know, depending on your business, contract sign pay all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 19:07

So they kind of got it down. Now it's just a numbers game, right After that. Would you agree with that? Just getting your front now of enough of those ideal clients.

Speaker 3: 19:18

In a macro level, yes, but in practice it's much more nuanced than that, okay. So what you figured out is so when you, when you achieve product market fit, you find that you have money because you have revenue, people are buying from you, right? So then it's developing a completely different set of skills. Like you, you've basically proven that your business can, can, can, exist in this environment, in the, in this marketplace. So now you've got to almost like you've got to stop doing that work. Like when I established Product Market Fit, I stopped going to all the conferences because my market wasn't there. Yeah, I was like I need to actually do now, learn a complete set, different set of things to grow.

Speaker 3: 20:07

So there's a few challenges that happen when you have product market fit. The first is that now you have, now you're inundated with work, account management for us, we were doing the ad buying. Okay, I've got a man. Like it was only me, I. I've got to manage these campaigns. I've got to cash the checks. I've got to reconcile the books, which was like dirty Excel, like it wasn't. It wasn't done. You know, I knew the, the practitioner work. I basically re-earned the opportunity to do what I knew how to do best, which is ad buying. So when you, when you grow the business, now, you've got to balance a few different plates to ensure that everything works. Once you get, once you figure out how to balance everything, then you can go back to selling again. So there's a little bit of a of a start and stop. Start and stop, yeah, so when you're restarting that growth engine, you're probably doing something very differently. So now you've got to see if you can scale, and scale comes from social content posting, and that's that's yet a different skill.

Speaker 1: 21:12

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:12

It's maybe like you starting a podcast because you want to reach more people. That's yet a different skill. It may be advertising, which is then a different skill, and you probably at some point as, as you know, uh, don't do it yourself hire an expert, because an expert will accelerate you for tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars of poor investments that you wouldn't make if you had an expert in your corner and save you thousands of hours of anguish and lost opportunity because you're not doing it right. So once you have product market fit, you're really looking for a way to deliver that predictable, repeatable and scalable, and that could take years For us. What I learned, what I sort of figured out in that period, was that we're a partnership company, we're entrepreneurs, so we go to market as outsourced ad buying or white label media buying this idea that a creative agency or a strategy firm or a general marketing company knows how to do other things really well, but they don't understand ad buying, so they partner up with us.

Speaker 3: 22:54

No-transcript. All were people who ended up becoming clients. That grows to a certain amount. So now you've got these different stages and then now over the last three-ish years, we've been trying to grow out of that. So we've established marketing and advertising efforts for our business. So at every stage of the business you've kind of got to like, like, reinvent what you know how to do effectively what you know how to do effectively, yeah, and along the way, spend a ton more money in expertise either consultants or in-house expertise to level up.

Speaker 2: 23:40

Sorry, no, you're good. Yeah, I, I completely agree. And it's kind of like with our journey. My journey was elevate, like I can. Kind of same thing like starting out with we were doing all, or I was doing all the video editing. I was doing everything wearing all the hats and got to the point where you were, we were doing good, and so I was like, okay, now I have to have a team to be able to scale what we're doing. And then we started to do a little bit more of video production outside of you, just video podcasting or editing, uh, social media content. That was already filled. We actually go and we record productions. We do productions in person now.

Speaker 2: 24:14

But now we're at that point where it's like, okay, now, like it looks different again. Right, I'm doing, you know I'm doing that. I'm I'm kind of the main person in the marketing and outreach. I'm going to go talk to the people. Find the new people on my team are doing all the technical stuff, which is great, because I love talking to people, I love meeting new people and and that process. And now I'm just I'm at the point where I'm like we're trying to hone that message even more, so we have like a better fit in the market so we can then possibly look into ads in the future and it's, it's, it is. I mean, you're spot on with the different levels and different stages and what that looks like and it, yeah, it's. It's a journey for sure, it's exciting, it's fun and it can be challenging for sure. But, yeah, I could agree more with that and how that looks.

Speaker 3: 24:59

It's only. I think it's only interesting to people who want to take that um to learn new things. Yeah, like you don't.

Speaker 2: 25:09

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you there. I was gonna say like I just did an episode on like freelancer versus agency kind of model and that it's okay if you're a freelancer and that's all you want, like that's fine. Yeah, like the agency stuff, like you're gonna have to learn new things and and scale and build and bring people in, and so there's like difference but like what's not better than the other, or one's not right versus the other, it's just you know what's right for you, kind of thing right.

Speaker 2: 25:33

What's right for you, know thyself yeah yes, for sure, and so you know, with that, if someone, okay. So obviously this is what you all do. So if someone is trying to do ads on them for themselves, do you? Is there any suggestions or tips you would give them? Let's say, they don't maybe have enough to invest into your company, or something like that. What would be maybe a couple little things that they should be thinking over, looking for, looking out for when they're trying to create an ad?

Speaker 3: 26:04

100%. So to get started with us, by the way, the low entry point is $1,500 a month and 1,000 of that goes to ad buying and 500 is a fee to us, and then usually our larger clients will be $500,000 a month. So we know how to scale for both up and down. So this is what we recommend. Most companies will have clients on meta or customers on meta. So let's talk about how to leverage meta to grow a business. So there's a three-part process that culminates in training meta to find your best customers by training the meta algorithm. So this is how you train the meta algorithm.

Speaker 3: 26:53

Number one you're going to ignore any of the targeting for retargeting, lookalike keywords or interest. Don't do any of that. Set up ad groups that are targeting age, gender and location the broadest you can possibly do. Now, if you're a restaurant and people will drive five miles to your restaurant, your broad targeting geographic parameter is five miles around the address. If you're a services company like ours, we can work with any agency or any business in the United States. So our broad geographic targeting is across the United States. Age is going to be 25 to 65 and gender men and women. Okay, so very broad.

Speaker 3: 27:36

The next thing you're going to do is commit to creating five ads per month. Now, when you have meta advertising, which is inclusive of inventory on Facebook and Instagram, and you create those ads, you have three different elements inside each ad. You have a primary text at the top, image or video in the middle and headline at the bottom. You're going to create five ads for the same sort of product and service and you're going to disassemble all of the different elements. So you're going to have five primary texts, five images or video and five headlines. You're going to mix and match in all the possible variations, which will result in 125 possible ad variations. But you're not going to have to run 125 different ads Takes too much time and too much money. What you're going to do is use science. You're going to use control and variable testing, powered by Meta's algorithm to determine estimated action rate, which is really this idea of like. If you spend a ton more money on any individual element, which element is going to be the most effective? What does Meta like and what do customers like on Meta? So this is the way you go from 125 different possible ad variations and you're going to continue this testing process until you have one all-star ad every month.

Speaker 3: 28:57

Okay, and what this does? And you could do this with hundreds of dollars a month, or thousands, or tens of thousands, whatever the case is. And there's a few things that happen along the way. Number one you are giving Meta your best ad creative, and the best ad creative is this one all-star ad every month that will power most of the leads and most of the sales for your campaign. So that's number one. So you're giving Meta your best ads. Number two by discerning which is your all-star ad every month so you're doing all of this in 30 days.

Speaker 3: 29:37

By discerning which is your all-star ad, the business starts to understand the best ways to message to their customers. Over time, you understand which products and services offers, discounts and even audiences resonate for the business, because this illustrates as a tangential point, this illustrates this idea that advertising is a real-time focus group. The marketplace of the customers tell you exactly what they want from you, which is then another way of ascertaining product market fit. If you don't have it so, broad targeting, creative testing and these insights collectively train Meta to find your best customers, and that's how our agency is doing it. That's how massive multinational ad agencies are doing it. They're not doing any age. They're not doing any keyword interest lookalike or remarketing, because Meta doesn't want you to do that anymore.

Speaker 2: 30:38

Interesting. Yeah, I'm just fascinated. Obviously, you guys can hear and see why it can get really you know in-depth and why it's important to be able to, you know, utilize people who are great in it if you can. And so you know in-depth and why it's important to be able to, you know, utilize people who are great in it if you can. And so you know, robert, again, I appreciate you shared all that right there, but everything else you shared during this conversation, so it's been, it's been fantastic. You know it gets my wheels turning a little bit and you know, thinking of all this and how to continue to scale and grow, and I think everyone else can do the same. You know, as we're closing things out, where can people come? Find you, connect with you, learn more about you.

Speaker 3: 31:15

Yeah, absolutely so. Our website is brillmediaco B, as in boy R-I-L-L. Mediaco. We also have a course that we're launching up soon for anyone that wants to learn how to create an advertising or marketing firm and outsource everything. So all you have to do is talk to people and, you know, do the fun stuff. Yeah, we're launching that as well, and, if you want, we have a 13 minute um like explainer of that, um training metas algorithm. So all you gotta do is email me, robert, at brillmediaco, type in f FB ad or Facebook ad in the subject line I'll give you the link to that Awesome.

Speaker 2: 31:54

Well, yeah, everyone, make sure you get connected with Robert, see what they're doing, learn from and, yeah, if you're in the market to have someone help you with ads, reach out to them. So, robert, again, I appreciate being on the Elevate Media podcast today.

Speaker 3: 32:06

Thanks, chris, appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 32:09

Thank you for listening to the Elevate Media Podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review. See you in the next episode.